content marketing with freelance copywriter Kimberly Weitkamp

Content Marketing with Copywriter – Kimberly Weitkamp

Jun 19, 2021

Freelance Copywriter Crafts Content Marketing

Effective content marketing requires a skilled copywriter. Email marketing remains the most valuable form of content marketing for any online business. Your email list a valuable business asset. Your email marketing list can’t be shut down by a change in Facebook algorithms. Yet, the key to developing a connection with potential clients or maintaining existing ones is effective copywriting.  So, content marketing, specifically email marketing should be helpful, useful, relevant, valuable to your customer.

It’s vital to be able to write in someone’s voice. And there are two parts. First, there is the voice of the company, or the voice of the service provider, the brand voice, and then there’s the voice of customer.

Meet Kimberly Weitkamp, a freelance copywriter, my personal copywriter who helps create content marketing and email mail marketing campaigns to build your brand, be remembered, and remain connected to your clients.

Kimberly’s 4-Step Process for Marketing Conversion

Kimberly Weitkamp creates content marketing for marketing conversion using her 4 step Audience Converter Process. As Kimberly explains, great copywriting speaks to your customer‘s problems and needs in their language using your brand voice.  In this interview, Kimberly shares brand voice examples, to show how the same topic can be written about differently using three different brand voice examples. Kimberly shares the importance of identifying the 2-3 types of people you’ll be speaking to, and the questions they are asking. Answering those questions in your content marketing is one of the keys to Kimberly’s process.

A great freelance marketing copywriter will have a process to get to know you, your business, and your own way of speaking and writing.  

In this episode Cheryl & Kimberly discuss:

  • The key to any great email marketing campaign is “how can I help you?
  • Make certain that the language you use matches who you are, but then also use language in your content marketing that matches what customers are actually searching for.
  • Kimberly’s Audience Converter Method – A four-step process:
    1. Audience:  Who are the people in the group that you’re going to be speaking to, that you’re actually going to help? There are usually 2 or 3.
    2. Ask:    What are the questions these people are asking?
    Audit:  Review your content marketing to find those questions and answers to them in your marketing  Are there gaps between what they need to know at stage 1 and stage 4?
    4. Answer: Create marketing that answers those top questions that are missing

Key takeaways:

  • Create long-term currency. Instead of  focusing on “how can I get the next sale?” consider, “How can I create a great experience for this customer so they want to stay with me for longer and let their friends know about me too?”
  • Make sure that you highlight that unique selling position in your copy. And copy can be used to kind of give a different perspective of something but you’re still talking about the same thing, right?  Your unique selling proposition, unique selling position, USP
  • When looking for a copywriter, ask them about their process? Do they have a process, ask them about how they’re going to communicate with you?
  • Always be testing, always be testing, always be testing. And if everything’s working properly, you’re not testing enough.

Connect with Content Marketing Copywriter Kimberly Weitkamp:

Twitter:  @audienceconvert

Show: theaudienceconverter

Connect with Cheryl Hodgson:   



Today on the Brand Revolution Show, "The number one important thing that I contribute is this idea of the secret sauce. And that is, helping your customers is your number one secret weapon when it comes to marketing, because Google, the way people interact with your company, and a few other parts of the marketing process are all based on one question, and that is, how can I help you?"

Welcome to Brand Revolution, where we answer the question, what does it take to launch your own brand revolution, create evolution, and who are the people that help you foster connection, community contribution and currency for a brand to build to last, you will also meet brands changing the world and the lives of those they serve. here's your host, Cheryl Hodgson.

Cheryl 00:50
Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Hodgson. Welcome to another episode of the Brand Aide Podcast. Today's guest, Kimberly Weitkamp, is going to share with you and me the secrets to successful copywriting and how it can make a difference in your business.

Kimberly is the owner of the Audience Converter business. And she also is the host of two fabulous podcasts, which will also help bring you further along in your knowledge about copywriting. Kimberly, could you share with us the secret and what role copywriting plays in great marketing?

Kimberly 01:31
Absolutely. So first, I want to let everyone know that when we're talking about copy writing, it's not what Cheryl does, which is with the law, but it's with the words. So it's c o p y w r i t i n g, which is basically any words that are going to appear in your marketing, that's copy writing. And, in general, copy writing is kind of the driver, it represents what your company stands for, the way you write, the way you say things, the way you relate to your audience.

All of those are really important. And that's part of creating really strong copy writing, which is making sure that people understand your message, and then understand what action to take.

Cheryl 02:12
Well, and Kimberly, I think copy writing is one of the most misunderstood, am I wrong? And also one of the more challenging aspects of launching an online business or a business offline as well. Just building a website and writing great copy for your website.

So tell me, you have created your own method that you call the audience converter method, could you share with us a bit more about that and how it really works?

Kimberly 02:39

Absolutely. So with the audience conversion method, basically, it's another process that I use to kind of really create those really strong marketing campaigns.

When I first got started copy writing, it was the Golden Age, if you will, of online business and entrepreneurs, everyone seemed to be making a million and a half dollars in their sleep or something. And because of that, and because of the messaging, people saw, marketing became kind of like this dirty word to people, they thought, you know, they had to be like a used car salesman to do marketing properly. And that's definitely not what I stand for. I'm all about marketing that is beneficial to the business and also beneficial to your customers.

And so for me, the key to any great marketing campaign is help, how can I help you? And that is at the core of every marketing campaign that I create, which is used with the audience conversion method.

It's all about you know, just knowing who exactly you're speaking with, what exactly their top concerns are. Seeing how easy it is for people to navigate that process, through your marketing or through your funnels or basically any interaction they have with your company. And then you create marketing materials that fill in those blanks. It's the audience, the Ask the audit, and the answer. And that's the audience conversion method in a nutshell, basically. And what it does is it just kind of guides people through the process of making sure that your marketing campaign doesn't have any gaps.

Cheryl 04:08
Well, I'd like to unpack that a little more, because there's a lot there's some nuggets in there. The first of which you mentioned is the helping and I noticed that you mentioned in your bio, something about helping is your secret. So my question is, tell me more about how helping is the secret sauce?

Kimberly 04:26
Helping is the secret sauce for your marketing online. And I will tell you why. Because more and more people have this magical device in their pockets that basically is connected to all of the encyclopedias and all of the libraries of the world. And you can ask questions, and it will give you answers. And that device, of course is your smartphone.

The number of searches being conducted by voice, which means it's in a natural way people are asking a specific question they want help with that number is rising. And so of course Google has decided well, we're going to give more precedence. We're going to give extra power, extra juice, if you will, to websites that are providing content that is helpful, it's useful, and it's relevant depending on the questions people are asking.

When I look at, how can I help you? It's basically like, okay, who is your audience? Who are the people you can best help? And what are the questions? They're picking up their phone and asking, like, you know, how many games did the Mets win this year? Right? That's a question. It's an it's a natural language question. It's not strange, you know how early days of the internet you had to put in like the phrase and in parentheses and a plus sign yet, you don't have to do that anymore, right?

You can just put in a question. So, when you create marketing materials that are helpful, useful, relevant, valuable to your customers, then those are what's going to float to the top. And that's what other people are going to recommend? Because they had a specific question, they already want help. So why not create the material that's going to help them?

Cheryl 05:57
Well, I have good example of that. Because recently, I was in a shopping mall, and I went into a store because I saw these fabulous slippers in the window, which were so extraordinary, I'd never seen anything like them. And of course, I ended up having a lengthy chat with the owner of the store who happened to also be the designer of all the clothes in the store, and he was sharing with me, well, let me show you, you just go on to YouTube and ask a question. And here are all these other attorneys who are, young attorneys who are asking a route shooting videos that answer the question that someone types into the Google search bar? So I think that's sort of an example of what you're talking about. Right?

Kimberly 06:42

Cheryl 06:43
And I find myself more and more going, how do I do this? And I go to YouTube and type it in because there's a helpful video on just about anything in the world now.

Kimberly 06:54
Absolutely. And that's the other part, right? It's not just Voice Search. It's also video search. So part of it is, people want the how to, essentially.

Most people who go to the internet, they have an intent, that's what's different between new advertising online and old advertising before the internet was. Before you kind of had to make sure hope that you were reaching somebody at the right time when they were thinking about whatever the problem was.

Now, I got a question, you saw those great shoes, and maybe you were like, I wonder how I clean these slippers? Well, then you went, and you would ask Google, right. And before it would be like, you might get a catalog in the mail that talks about this great cleaning solution for slippers. But that's only going to be relevant to you if you literally just bought those slippers. Whereas now, the way interaction goes between companies, and the individuals that they want to help is very much on a how to level it's these are people who are already searching for what you do. They just don't necessarily know about you and your solution. So helping them giving them that help, in the very beginning, will keep them engaged with you throughout the process.

Cheryl 08:00
Well, which I think is so fascinating, because, the name of my podcast is Brand Aide. Right? And I'm the Brand Aide and one of my reasons for launching my podcast is that there's so many aspects of building a brand. It's just not one thing. It's not just a beautiful logo. It's not just the legal protection I help people with. There's many, many aspects, of how do you get your messaging out, and great copy writing turns out is one of the most important things that goes into that mix in building a brand.

I have a question because one of the things that and this is a bit personal, I'll share this quickly that, you know, for me having the courage to actually watch a podcast or offer a training was a slow burn for me because while I was a good lawyer, I was the behind-the-scenes person, right? I didn't necessarily see myself as speaking out in the world, right? And so now I have this little message about finding your voice and sharing it with the world. So when you are doing great copy writing or when you're copy writing for a client providing copy, are you considering the voice of the brand? Are you considering the voice of the customer or both?

Kimberly 09:16
Oh, that is an excellent question. That is one of the top complaints I have heard from clients who've worked with other copywriters in the past. That is really high-top concern is, I hired a copywriter, they did something for me, they said it was going to work great, but it didn't sound like me, right? And that is such a key part of your marketing because it has to sound like you. When people meet you in person, when they interact with your company day after day, month after month when they look at customer service when they look at your product. All of that has to be in accordance with your guidelines with your brand. Your brand needs to be consistent. So when you hire someone who doesn't write in your voice, right?

My favorite is when people, they'll hire somebody to create these really long, great involved really strong marketing campaigns, but they don't change the copy on the confirmation email that says, Yes, I want to be on your list, which that's like the first thing people are going to see, they saw this great landing page, which is basically just a dedicated web page to offer you something like a free download. So they saw this great thing, and they're really excited about what they're going to get. And the next message you get is, you know, make sure we want to make sure you really want this, please confirm you want to be on our list, but they stick with what we call boilerplate copy, which is whatever is provided by the software company.

Their email company says, "please click below to confirm your subscription." And that's all it is. Suddenly, there's a break in the brand, right? There's a break in the message. There's a break in the experience. And people are like, well, if they can't even change, this, is this really what I thought it was going to be, and it creates a lot of distressed. It's incredibly important to be able to write in someone's voice. And so there are two parts, there's the voice of the company, or the voice of the guru, or, the brand voice, and then there's the voice of customer. And what I've done actually is I've been trained to write in the voice of other people.

I have gone through this training with one of the best people who wrote for a bunch of entrepreneurs. And she was known as like the, the mother of two who became the brand voice behind male gurus in the entrepreneur space, right. But you know, it's so important, it's such a key part of writing really great copy that I went ahead and did the training on how to write in someone else's voice. But then for voice of customer, that's really important as well, because for a lot of entrepreneurs, we're so close to what we're doing, that we use words that other people don't necessarily understand, or we get so excited about what we do, we almost forget what our audience does or doesn't know.

Voice of customer is basically making sure that the language you use are terms your customer is using, right. So if somebody is looking for help with trademarking, do they know the term trademark or are they looking for something like how can I protect my brand name? Or are they doing a search for how do you get a trademark, right?

Cheryl 12:17
Yes, exactly.

Kimberly 12:19
Yeah, making sure that the language you use matches who you are matches, the brand guidelines, but then also is using terms and language and copy that matches what customers are actually searching for?

Cheryl 12:32
Well, and I think the legal profession is a great one to pick on. Because I've been blogging for almost 10 years. And the first I mean, it's embarrassing to say, when I go back and I look at ice before I even had a blog, I had a newsletter. And I would send out this newsletter. And I was writing and all this legal babble. I call it legal babble, not legal ease, because there's nothing easy about it, for the client.

Kimberly 12:59
Oh, yeah.

Cheryl 13:00
And it's one of my biggest reasons that I, number one have written the book I've written and that I have been blogging the way I have. Number one personally, it helped forced me to get better at that. And it was not easy, because, part of going to law school is it kind of takes all your creativity out of you.

Kimberly 13:23
Well you're still funny, Cheryl.

Cheryl 13:25
Well, I'm trying, but it's been a big struggle to get back to being who I was because I had to adopt this, and then you mimic, you're in that environment, right? Not only law school, but you work in law firms, and you start to mimic everything you see, even on a subconscious level.

I want to pick up on what you just said a moment ago about when you saw that inconsistency in the thank you page or the confirmation page, and that it was a break in the brand, because that ties into something I call the brand experience. Right. And I think so the copy writing is part of helping create a consistent experience, right of what the brand is about.

Kimberly 14:07
Absolutely. And when learning about how to write in other people's voices, there's like seven voice, stereotypes or archetypes, if you will. And you know, it's about how people explain information, right? Is the way this person relates to their audience, kind of like, this is a teacher, this is what you do, this is how you're going to do it. And that's the way they communicate, or is it more like a parent saying, "these are the things I've done wrong in the past; I don't want you to do them." So I'm going to share my story with you, right? Or there's also another voice type, which is like, I don't know if this is going to work or not. I'm going to take you on the journey as we go through this together and share with you the experience.

Those are three different ways of talking about the same thing. It could be how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, right? You know, the parents going to say, make sure to keep the knife far away from your fingertips so you don't scrape yourself right but the teacher is going to say, what you do is first you get out the bread, then you put on the peanut butter. And the person who's like, I'm not sure if it's going to work is going to say, Well, I want to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but I didn't have a knife. So let's see if the spoon will work. And I'm going to tell you my story about using a spoon to spread the peanut butter and the jelly, right. So those are three different ways of explaining the exact same situation, but they're in different voices.

Cheryl 15:19
That's fantastic. I just love it.

Kimberly 15:22
And that is exactly what I'm talking about when making sure that your copy is consistent, and matches your brand across every single thing you create.

Cheryl 15:32
Oh, thank you so much for sharing that. And then, can great copy help a brand create a unique selling position?

Kimberly 15:41
Unique Selling position is part of your copy. You want to make sure that you highlight that unique selling position in your copy. And copy can be used to kind of give a different perspective of something but you're still talking about the same thing, right? Your unique selling proposition, unique selling position, USP, as we call it, in the marketing world, is all about what makes you different, right? Because for example, talking to a lawyer, so we'll use a lawyer, right? If I want to get copyright protection, which is C-O-P-Y-R-I-G-H-T that we're talking about.

Cheryl 16:19
Hopefully, our audience will know that. That may have to be the title of your episode, copywrite not copyright.


Kimberly 16:26
And you know what, half the time I don't even use the word copywriter when talking about what I do, because people think that means I'm a legal professional. (inaudible)... go to law school.

Cheryl 16:37
What do you use? What term do you use?

Kimberly 16:39
My introduction is kind of a, it's from a USP perspective. It's people say, oh, what do you do? Oh, I, you know, those emails you get from companies that let you know about new things are going on, I write those. And that's one way I can introduce it. Or I'll say, you know, I help entrepreneurs create great messages that keep getting opens from their clients to create long term customers. And they'll be like, what does that mean? I want to hear more about that. Right. So I avoid using the word copy writing. Because it's very much a marketing term, which goes back to, voice of customer and voice of the brand, making sure that the words you use match what they're looking for what they understand.

Cheryl 17:21
Oh, good. Well, then I may have to have you help me find a new word for the word copyright?

Kimberly 17:30
I think you got it down, right? With the brand revolution protect, right? You've got those three words, and protect is one of them. And that's, that's the big one. How do you protect your brand? What you do? You help entrepreneurs protect their brand. And what you do is through legal trademarks, but that's, that's not important. It's your protecting their brand.

Cheryl 17:49
Well, I want to go back to what you said, because you had three, I actually have three other words to select, secure, sustain, and I've gotten into this whole alliteration thing. I want to back up because when you were describing your method, you use three words, and we went right by them that I wanted to come back to those what were they?

Kimberly 18:06
Oh, actually, it's four. So there's four parts to the process for the audience conversion method, its audience, ask audit, answer.

Cheryl 18:14
Okay. Could you run through those in a little more detail?

Kimberly 18:18
Not too much detail? Yeah, I can do

Cheryl 18:21
Well, just a little...

Kimberly 18:22
Well, I used to write. Now I focus on entrepreneurs, but for quite a while I wrote for a lot of software companies. And I would ask them, okay, so who is your ideal buyer? That's a really common question people ask in marketing, who is your ideal buyer? Who's your ideal customer, your ideal client? Or what is your avatar? I don't like the word avatar.

Cheryl 18:45
I don't either.

Kimberly 18:47
What is your avatar? And inevitably, the answer I would get would be, oh, well, we serve hotels that have over 200 rooms and an annual revenue of a million dollars. And I would say, Okay, and so here's the problem with your answer, a hotel, a building that says the word hotel on it is not going to read anything you write. It's not going to read your messages, it's not going to read your emails, it's not going to answer the phone, a person is doing that.

I want to talk about who your audience is. Who are the many people in the group that you're going to be speaking to, that you're actually going to help? And that kind of help people kind of change their perspective, because a lot of people have this idea of my ideal buyer is, a company that does this, or a person who works for a company that does this. And the reality is, is that when talking to people buy from people they like, and that goes into making sure that you're speaking to the right audience.

And the reason I use the word audience instead of avatar is because there's not just one, most of the time you're not going to serve just one person, but you are going to serve two or three different types of people. So, let's talk about people who are looking for trademark help. Maybe you're talking to entrepreneurs who are bootstrapping, that's a specific type of audience member. Maybe you're talking to a larger brand, who already has the basics done, but needs to talk about more in-depth protection? That's another part.

Cheryl 20:19

Kimberly 20:19
Or maybe you're talking to a big corporation who needs to do all of their renewals? How do they do that? Okay, that's the third member of your audience, all of them are coming to you for the exact same service. But the information they need, the information they already have, and the approach that they're going to want to take are very, very different. So first, you need to define who is your audience? What members of your audience do you have? So that's audience.

Cheryl 20:45
That's fabulous. It's, really profound, actually.

Kimberly 20:50
And then once you have your audience members, I recommend people start with two to three, right? Just do two to three, and people like, Oh, that's too narrow, I can help everyone. And I said, Yes. But the more you help everyone, the more generalized your message is. And then you can't really have that connection when someone picks up a smartphone and asks that very specific question.

So ask is part two, what are those people asking? But we have three different audience members? So they might have the same three top concerns. But the question they asked for that top concern is very different. Right? What is the first step to getting a trademark might be the entrepreneur who's just starting out?

The next one is, what steps do I need to take to really solidify my brand protection?
They may not be asking it in that exact way. But that's like that second audience, right. So first, you have your audience, and you have to define that first. Because the next step is what are they asking, and you have to know who you're talking with first, before you can figure out what they're asking.

The third part is audit, which most of us we hear the word audit, we think of a little guy from the IRS, he's in a boring suit, and he's going to talk to you about your taxes, which no one likes, but what I'm talking about is going through your marketing, as if you were a member of your audience. How easy is it to get from point A to B? Can you find those asks? Can you find those questions in your marketing? Are there gaps between what they need to know at stage one? And what they need to know at stage four? Is it easy to get there? Or is there something that you need to fill in the blanks? And then the last part is answer create the marketing that answers those top questions that you don't already have.

Cheryl 22:33
You know, I think that is so fabulous. And I hope the audience can take this in and go back and really focus on it because I had a fabulous interview with a legend in marketing named Brian Kurtz a few weeks ago.

Kimberly 22:45
Oh, yes, I know, Brian Kurtz.

Cheryl 22:46
Brian Kurtz pointed out something that really captured my attention. And it goes directly to what you said about the audience. And it's, it captured my attention, because it's a pet peeve of mine as a consumer is that if you're speaking, once somebody becomes a customer, don't speak, continue speaking to them with emails that are treating them like a prospect. And I could give an example. And they will remain nameless, but I've tried subscribing to their financial entry level product, not once, but twice. And both times, I've paid for an entire year, and then I've deleted them and shut them off, because they won't leave me alone. They don't ever do anything to acknowledge that I am a customer. All they do is send me more marketing materials to be on more webinars to buy $5,000 packages or $3,000 packages, which I'm not interested in. But they are doing nothing to nurture me as an existing customer at the product that I bought into. And yeah, it's like How are you? How are people not noticing this? You know, I find it annoying.

Kimberly 24:03
That is a common situation for a lot of people, actually. Because what happens is you do all this work to get people on your list, right? And this goes for a lot of people I help too with course creators, right? I'm so excited, I'm going to do all this material around the launch, and they're going to buy my products and they bought your product, but then they don't contact them again until they have something new to sell.

And I'm very much a from a perspective of, once they're your customer, you want to create a community. You want to create long term customers, which means you still contact them, even if you, especially, if you don't have anything to sell them because you want to continue to provide value.

You want to continue to help them move to the next step of working with you. So like for the financial products, right, maybe sending out a monthly reminder, hey, we've sent we've created two or three new things this month in that thing you've already bought. Have you checked it out yet? Or did you know you could get this benefit from being a member of this product already?

That is so important. And it's such a key part of what I do for people is, creating that long term engagement in a way that helps. And it also makes it helps people so they don't feel like they're always selling. Because you know, lists get what people called burned out. And that's what if you're always offering, always offering always offering?

Cheryl 25:26
Yeah, it doesn't always have to be better.

Kimberly 25:29
As you said, you get annoyed and you unsubscribe.

Cheryl 25:30
Right. And I think that goes to my latest and greatest three new words, which is, when I sat around, I spent years trying to figure out how do you really define a brand? Because to me, it's the most overused and often misunderstood word around. We didn't come out of the womb knowing what a brand really is. And we have hundreds of thousands of people telling us what a brand is. And there's not really a consistency.

It is about the what your reputation is, but I think that comes from my new three words are building a connection, creating community, and building currency with your audience. And currency can turn into money, but currency is also the result of creating the connection and the community.

Kimberly 26:16
Absolutely. It's that long term currency. So many companies are focused on the short term. If you're talking about solo people, if you're talking about small business, if you're talking about big business, it doesn't matter what category. So much of their marketing is focused around, how can I get the next sale instead of how can I create a great experience for this customer so they want to stay with me for longer. And let their friends know about me too.

Cheryl 26:43
Yeah, well, I want to switch gears and ask you something, and your opinion, because I've just been, I've as you know, we're we met through the launch your podcast training, and new media summit. And one of the parts of that is building out a funnel, which mine is a free offer for free download of my book, which is for startup entrepreneurs and business owners.

I've been in the process of wanting to create a sales page that would address the book. And so I got this copy person that was referred to me that sent me this like, one of those long sales pages. And what are your thoughts on the long sales page that we've seen for years ever since the internet started? I mean, is that still the norm? Or is it changing due to short attention spans? I mean, I didn't even want to read my own sales page. It was too long.

Kimberly 27:46
So the answer is both. Direct response marketing, which was, you know, those long letters you would get in the mail. That's the oldest form of marketing, and it's still successful, if you have the money to send out that many messages in the actual mail. It's still a very high converting that a lot of people still buy from it. Yes.

In terms of what's great for direct response. One of the things that I think there's a misconception about in marketing is people are like, well, if I create this awesome sales page, then I'm going to get 80% of the people who land on it to buy. And the reality is that, let's talk about you asked about your funnel, right? If you have this funnel, and you want people to get onto your list, you want them to buy, read your book, and then you want them to maybe move to a call with you or move to working with you directly correct?

Cheryl 28:41
Or course,

Kimberly 28:42
or course, okay, great. Just strict numbers, just tracking by industry standards, if 100 people land on that page for the free signup, a good conversion is 11% of them will sign up. So 11 people out of 100 will sign up. And then from that 11 a good percentage of them to open all of your emails is 30%. What's that to make things? brands make things you will do it for? Okay, so 30% of them are actually going to open those messages. And then of that 30% are going to sign up for that free call.

So from there, you're down to one person, so 100 people, and one of them gets that free call. And those are average numbers, right? You can increase them; you can decrease them. It just depends on your industry and everything. But that's just a general number. It's a numbers game, right? So in terms of long sales pages, they still work. People still read them. But the thing is, is that like you very few people read all of it. But what the long sales page is doing is people skim them, and so there's short sections, each with a subhead. I'm going to scroll through Oh, she's talking about brands protection legally. I want to know more about that. So then I'll read that section.

And then then the next thing is like how to sustain it. Oh, that's not relevant to me. So the longer sales pages still work, because they cover lots of the different areas as to why somebody might be interested in what you do. But not everyone's going to read the full thing they are going to skim it.

A key part to making a long sales page work, of course, is to offer many opportunities for people to then click through to the next part. If you make somebody read to the end, you're not going to get a lot of clicks. But if halfway through, once you've introduced what the option with the offer with the product with the service is, once you start offering that button, then you need to do it on a frequent basis.

Once they've read the part they need to know, then they're ready to go to the next step. But short sales pages work too. It's one of those things that it's the favorite phrase in marketing. And it's like the bane of pretty much every client's existence is you just need to test it.

You never know how your audience is going to respond until you test. There's a famous quote in marketing, which is… forget who said it. But if everything is working properly, you're not testing enough. So you want to always be testing, always be testing, always be testing. And if everything's working properly, you're not testing enough. A short page could work for your audience, long pages could work well. And the reason why long sales pages are still in existence is because they are still converting well.

Cheryl 31:30
and then jumping to that's very helpful to know. But then it's different strategy. Now we have so many people who are running Facebook ad campaigns or other where it's just an ad, where you have limited space and a very, has to be a call to action, in other words, so do you get involved with that kind of writing with your clients?

Kimberly 31:58
Actually, yes, about half of my clients right now are Facebook ads. And Facebook ads are one of those things that are evolving and changing. It used to be short and sweet was better, shorter, the sweeter, the better. And now they're finding, there are particular instances where longer works. So we're talking, a long, long Facebook ad. A good thousand words, maybe sometimes.

Cheryl 32:24
Really? Wow!

Kimberly 32:25
I mean, it's, I forget the exact limitation on Facebook's copy length. But it's longer than most people think it is. And the key part, of course, is the two lines before you have to click learn more, right. And there's all kinds of other parts to writing a successful Facebook ad, which is not only do people you want them to click through, but you want them to share with people you want them to interact with the ad, even if they don't buy and there's all kinds of other parts to running a successful Facebook ad campaign.

But in terms of just Facebook ads in general, one key part, which is the key part of any great marketing campaign in my mind, is segmentation. You're not just creating Facebook ads for people who don't know you, you're creating Facebook ads, who are maybe or already on your list, or for people who have visited a page of your site, but didn't sign up to your email list, or they went to go sign up for that webinar, that you want to remind them to go to the webinar. There is reminder, as you can see on Facebook for like attending a training. I mean, there's all kinds.

Cheryl 33:25
Well, what you're pointing out here with this discussion is that launching a brand and being heard is a real challenge. Number one, there are so many platforms, and channels on which a brand number one has to choose from. And then they have to make the choice of where are they going to focus, right? In terms of being seen and heard, to actually launch a brand

Kimberly 33:50
They have to choose but it goes back to their audience. It goes back to the audience. So you don't necessarily have to choose. I would not recommend choosing like 16 different platforms to be on. But also making sure to choose the right platform.

When I first got started, I was contacted by a dentist who wanted to create advertising for Snapchat, because that was the new thing. That's where everyone was interacting. That was the fastest growing social network at the time. And I pointed out to them that the average age of a snapchat user was 15 years old. A 15-year-old doesn't care who their dentist is, and in fact doesn't necessarily have a choice of their dentist. Mom and dad choose who their dentist is. Making sure that the platform you choose to invest in does have your audience members on it.

Cheryl 34:34
That's really important. I could continue this discussion on because I find it fascinating. If you're a member, my audience and you are out there and number one, I hope they will all contact Kimberly because obviously I think she has tremendous talent and skill and you can be of great service. But I mean, what distinguishes a great copywriter from someone who's average,

Kimberly 35:02
A great copywriter, it all comes down to client interaction, I think. There's a, especially in the freelance world, one of the first pieces of advice I ever got was if you show up and you're prepared, you've beaten 80% of the applicants, which I found an appalling number. But apparently, it's true.

When looking for a copywriter, ask them about their process? Do they have a process, ask them about how they're going to communicate with you? Because communication is so important.

Cheryl 35:33
Yes it is.

Kimberly 35:33
Make sure that you're updated on your project, like who wants to talk with somebody once and then you have to wait seven weeks? And then they come back with the finished copy? No, you want to know the questions, you want to know what's going on? And that kind of thing. So I would say, what sets a great copywriter apart is a willingness to get to know the client, get to know their company. They should be asking you something about, can you fill out a questionnaire, can we talk about your product in depth? They'll need to go through whatever it is that you're offering, so they know what they're writing about. And also being able to conduct audience research. Doing voice of customer data research is what we call it. And mostly that's, creating a survey that you can send out to people who are already on your list.

You can find out a little bit of how they talk about what you do. So that you can kind of get that messaging and get that voice of customer language, combined with your own brand voice into your copy.

Cheryl 36:28
Wow, that's fabulous advice. Well, I want to thank you so much, because I think it's a great conversation. Before we complete the call, I always ask two favorite questions. Number one is, is there something about you that most people wouldn't know that you'd like to share, either personally or professionally?

Kimberly 36:51
That most people wouldn't know? That one I don't know about. But, well, okay. Most people don't necessarily know this. I have lived in four different countries. And one of two of those countries, English speakers, were hard to find.

Cheryl 37:08
Tell us where you lived.

Kimberly 37:10
I lived in China for a while. And I also lived and worked in Spain for a couple of years.

Cheryl 37:15
Well, what a fabulous experience.

Kimberly 37:18
Yes, it was a lot of fun. I sometimes miss living in Europe, for sure. And I love traveling and meeting people from around the world. So it was very much a fun time for me.

Cheryl 37:28
Well, that's two countries. The third is the United States. What was the fourth?

Kimberly 37:32
I lived in New Zealand for a year.

Cheryl 37:34
Oh, my goodness you've had what an adventure you've had. Were you in Auckland?

Kimberly 37:40
I know. I spent maybe a week in Auckland, I was not a fan of Auckland. I spent the majority of my time on the South Island.

Cheryl 37:50
Oh, okay. Well, it's pretty nice. I've only been there once for eight days. And I didn't want to leave. It was spectacular.

Kimberly 37:56
The nature in New Zealand. It's just gorgeous.

Cheryl 37:59
Yeah. Well, and is there something burning on your bucket list this year?

Kimberly 38:05
Burning on my bucket list?

Cheryl 38:08
Hmm. You're probably You're too young to have a bucket list, actually. But

Kimberly 38:12
Oh, c'mon. No. Everyone's got a bucket list. I would like - I've done some of the more interesting things people put on their bucket list, like climbing a glacier or flying in a helicopter, or bungee jumping. I've done that too. But my bucket list would probably just be to meet, 30 to 40 new, fascinating people who I can connect with for many years to come.

Cheryl 38:38
Oh, that's fabulous. And I know that's, that's a wonderful sentiment. That's really lovely.

How can people who wish to get to know you better? I'll reach you and do you have any kind of free gift for our audience that you could share?

Kimberly 38:54
Absolutely. Right now I'm offering basically I call it the stranger's to the funnel breakthrough call. If you already have a funnel, and you want it to work better for you, I have a 30-minute free strategy sessions to kind of gain clarity on what is going on in your funnel, is it? what's working, what's not? And how can we start addressing, what are some quick action steps you can take to improve the conversions, if you will, that's the marketing speak where basically get more people into your funnel and stay there. And that's at the which I will send the links, of course, and if they want to just learn more about me and my services, or listen to the podcast that's at and I'm always open to getting emails as well. So

Cheryl 39:54
Awesome. Well, thank you, Kimberly. It's been a pleasure having you and for our audience. I just will remind you Please make certain you check the show notes and you will have the links to connect precisely with Kimberly and to move forward and it's been another episode of the Brand Aide Podcast and we will see you next time.

Narrator 40:15
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The Business Owners Guide to Brand Protection reveals my proven three-step system to bullet proof your brand assets online and off, while you build a lasting legacy.